Interview, A Conversation with Zoe and Idris Rahman

Gathering together an eight-piece band of outstanding musicians, Zoe Rahman has created Colour Of Sound: the most ambitious, many-hued, uplifting large-ensemble music of her multi-award winning career. It combines Zoe’s unique and powerful writing with thrilling arrangements and dynamic performances from the whole band to create an album of jazz at its highest level that still communicates its message directly to the listener. It’s a splash of colour and a bold statement beautifully realised that is her most compelling work to date.

Speaking with Zoe and her brother, Idris, we were lucky enough to find out what life is like for them as two of the most inspiring jazz artists in Britain today.

It’s great to hear you performing with each other once again, but how did your musical association begin?

Zoe: I’d played in Idris’ band [Soothsayers] on One More Reason (2009) and he played a track on my Melting Pot album, which was Mercury-nominated, in 2006, and then also on a live album from Pizza Express around the same time that [the collaborative] Where Rivers Meet (2008) came out. Obviously, we’ve played together for years and years since we were little children. I’m sure we will have recorded other stuff – it's quite a long time ago now!

Perhaps it felt a little overdue when you properly launched your partnership on Where Rivers Meet, then?

Zoe: I think it was more organic than that. I’d wanted to delve a little bit into our Bengali heritage because our dad wasn’t very well at the time. He had some old cassettes that I transferred onto CD for him when he was in hospital. I got to hear some of the music that he'd been listening to for years, which I hadn't really paid attention to up to that point. I mean, we knew a bit about our Bengali heritage, but we don't really have any relatives in the UK, apart from distant cousins – the first time I went to Bangladesh was when I was 15. So, the music at that point was a way of getting in touch with my dad's heritage, really. The culture, the music, language... I've always tried to learn Bengali, but very unsuccessfully! Most of the music on Where Rivers Meet, all of it, in fact, was originally vocal pieces. There were a lot of tunes that my dad really liked, some of his favourite compositions. And then in the process of making the album, we met a lot of other Bengali singers and musicians, here and in Bangladesh, who introduced us to all kinds of music. That’s my side of the story, maybe Idris has got another memory of it?

Idris: It was similar for me, the beginning of delving into that kind of music. It’s an ongoing thing, which, hopefully, we can do more of as well. We've done more gigs since then and we’ve both been to Bangladesh, where we did one gig/a few gigs/a couple of gigs? I can't remember!

Zoe: We did a British Council tour where we went to Sri Lanka and then India before ending up in Bangladesh, doing a concert in Dhaka in this big beautiful theatre; the first three rows of this 700-seat venue were made up of our relatives! That was interesting because of the combination of piano and clarinet: the reason that we work on those tunes in this combination is because, on the piano, I can’t mimic the voice in the same way that Idris can on clarinet. It’s very soulful, what he does. He can get a sound that’s very close to the voice. He can get in between and bend the notes in a way that I can’t.

A lot of the time, there’s not actually any harmony – it’s very melody-led. So, in terms of piano and harmony, they don't really exist for many of those tunes in their original form. I was interested to see what we could do in our own way because we are half-Bengali, but we were born and brought up in England; we have a different take on it. Some of the tunes were very familiar because [Bengali poet and Nobel laureate] Rabindranath Tagore came to England and took English, Irish as well as Scottish folk tunes, reworking them with Bengali lyrics. There’s already a connection between this part of the world and Bengal.

How did you find adapting to working within that Bengali tradition, in particular?

Idris: Well, you’ve got to have respect for the song as it is, not mess around too much. But then, there's a lot of harmonic messing around that we do, structurally as well. There's a ‘Tagore-Lobby’ which is very protective of his music, so you’ve got to be kind of careful! You can get a big backlash of criticism if you've gone too far, taking a lot of music away from its traditional, non-harmonic kind of roots… but, we didn't have too many criticisms of what we did.

Zoe: In fact, one of our aunties on our dad’s side is a specialist in Tagore’s music, so we do have that level of respect. She’ll tell us if it’s not quite right!

Idris: At the same time, [Bangladeshi singer-songwriter] Arnob is really pushing the boundaries of where you can go because he grew up steeped in that school from a very young age. Obviously, he’s known much more for his pop music, but he does amazing things in taking people on a journey with Tagore as well. We helped him a little bit along that journey, too. Just before Christmas, he was doing this Coke Studio session where he asked us to come, so I went and did a couple of tunes. They were amazing musicians that he collected to do that project; a lot of them had listened to the Where Rivers Meet album, over and over again. They were quite influenced by it. It’s interesting to see the effect it had on them – it’s definitely permeated into the culture a little bit and has affected what they think is possible with those tunes.

Zoe: That’s really important. As outsiders, growing up here, we have a completely different take on that music because we weren’t brought up with it. We don’t really know the history behind it in the same way, so we take more liberties with it, I suppose, and interpret it based on our own upbringing and musical experiences.

What did you learn following that experience and how did it affect your practice going forwards?

Zoe: Mainly that I don’t know very much about it! And I’m trying to learn – like Idris said, it’s an ongoing thing. It was the 50th anniversary of the creation of Bangladesh recently, and we did some gigs with some musicians here: Sohini Alam, a great singer, and then Debipriya Sircar, the sitar player and vocalist. I’ve done a lot of projects as well that have led me to listen to more Indian classical music; I did one recently with John Mayer on guitar. Idris has done a lot of work as well, Anoushka Shankar, he’s worked with. Just exploring that kind of music, which, like I say, we weren’t really brought up with, so we’re coming at it from a different angle.

Idris: We don’t know a lot, but it’s interesting to see the effect of what we’ve done on musicians in Bangladesh, because they’ve definitely taken note of what we’ve done. Even when I went at Christmas, I felt like a beginner, almost! One of the songs that I was doing is known by literally everybody… I just learned it a week before then had to play it and sound like I knew what I was doing! I went from having a brief rehearsal the first night to my uncle’s house. He’s a businessman – not a musician – but he does have a harmonium. He asked which songs we were going to be recording and I said there was one called ‘Nodir Kul’ – he goes, “Is it this one?”, and he got his harmonium out and played the song start to finish, with intros and melodies in-between. He even sang the whole thing. I was like, “Tsk... that’s the one.”

Zoe: It’s a bit embarrassing! People expect you to know, especially here. Where we grew up [in Chichester], there wasn’t really anyone who looked like us. There weren’t many Bengali families [apart from the ones] who ran the local Indian restaurants. In that context, it’s very thin on the ground – our knowledge of this music is pretty starved.

Do you find when making music that you have a particular sound in mind that suits the ensemble, or do you think about the individual players you’re working with?

Zoe: On this album, as with all my albums, it came about with the music coming first. With composition, they emerge gradually over time. Some of the tracks were written a long time ago, some in 2019 and 2020, because that was the time I was hoping to record the album. Obviously, a few life events got in the way so it meant we couldn’t record until last year! Each individual track has a different beginning and end point. First off, it’s written at the piano with maybe solo piano or trio in mind. Because I’m an independent artist with my own label, it's a question of time and finances as to how I can record, how many musicians there are on each track, that kind of thing.

The album ended up how it ended up - it wasn’t planned, but, given the circumstances, that’s what emerged. I would love to say one day ‘I’m gonna plan a big band album, this is exactly how it’s going to be and these are the people who’ll be on it,’ but, financially and practically, for me – especially as a mum with two young kids and the fact that I deal with most of my career by myself, unfortunately… I mean, I really like the way it turned out. It’s a surprise to me, frankly, which is nice! I’m happy that all these musicians agreed to play on the album where we’ve managed to find time somewhere in their busy schedules to come and help record, edit and do all those things… it turned out alright!

In terms of arrangements, those things came afterwards. I actually went into the studio thinking I had to plan to do this as a trio album, just in case I didn’t get the musicians. All the compositions work [in that format]. I’ve been playing a lot of them for some time, others I’ve played in quintet form with Byron Wallen and Roland Sadler. We did a gig at Cheltenham Jazz Festival last year; that was the catalyst for writing these arrangements. I really wanted to expand on this because I was given an Ivor Novello Impact Award for my work over the last twenty years, which just came out of the blue in 2021. I thought, finally I can consider myself as a composer in a real sense [now] someone’s given me that stamp of approval.

I really wanted to show my compositions in their full light, and for the tour itself I’ve arranged everything for the octet but on the album each track has a different lineup… you hear different textures, different instrumentalist, different soloists, to create interest for the listener and a journey throughout the whole record. I’m old school, I still enjoy [making albums]. That’s where my heart is.

What are some of the hardest difficulties facing musicians today?

Zoe: It’s an incredibly expensive business, making records, but there’s no replacement for it. I’m a piano player, so I have to go into the studio. If I want amazing musicians, I have to pay them, obviously, to come in and do their stuff. Everything that goes around making the album, it’s a costly thing. I do it because I really want to hear the end-product. I want to in future years [see] where my playing was at that point, those are the kinds of tunes that I was writing. I only make albums when I have enough tunes I’m confident I want to put together and record, so we only [do it] every few years – I’m not just churning them out every five minutes! There are many reasons, artistically and financially.

Idris: There's a lot less money in all forms of music in general. Most of the money in pop music comes from Adidas! Sadly, that’s where we’re at with the music business. [A platform like] Bandcamp is good, because it’s making people aware that musicians need to eat, basically, and that’s a really good thing. People are very loyal on that side as well, and they won’t go elsewhere. It’s a long battle, because people just want music for free.

You’ve both spent much of your time championing fresh talent. What is it about these musicians that makes you want to share the stage with them?

Zoe: For Colour of Sound in particular, I’ve got a younger generation of people on there [and] touring with us, as well…Helena Kay, Rosie Turton, Alex Ridout; these are all young musicians who I’ve seen coming up. Alex, I first came across when she won BBC Young Jazz Musician and I was on the panel, and Helena, they won the Peter Whittingham Award, which was the first time I saw them play. Rosie, I’d heard about because I’ve worked with a big band in Lincoln called Jazz Vehicle, [which] she’d just left. All those young people, they always talked about her. I’ve always wanted to work with these musicians and this is a fantastic opportunity for me to bring them in. Their energy and connection to jazz and blues in their playing, their knowledge of the music is really important as a musician, because that’s what I like to hear. That’s what I want, those deep roots in the music. That’s why I work with people like Gene Calderazzo, Alec Dankworth and Rowland Sutherland, because they know the history of the music and they don’t shy away from that – they really do love it! I want to be around people who enjoy the music [without] trying to do anything modern or fancy just for the sake of it, pretending that jazz hasn’t happened. I’m actually part of that history, part of that story and these musicians that I choose to work with also have that background and those connections. And of course, Idris plays every instrument under the sun, so I had to get him in!

It sounds like a key ingredient is the vibe shared by the ensemble?

Idris: It’s all about that. If you can connect with someone [then] you can play music with them - and if you can’t, it’s gonna be difficult. Especially if you’re taking them on tour, because 95% of the time you won’t be playing music!

Zoe: It’s not always like that, you’re not always gonna get on all the time. But, as long as you can get through that and come out the other side, or get over it on a bad day, then that's fine.

Idris: If you do have issues, musically, if there’s a connection and you can actually communicate with them properly [then] you’ve got a better chance of sorting out issues with the music. It’s nice to be able to talk to people, but that’s not always the case. That’s what we aim for, anyway, people you can talk to and play music with. That’s gonna get the best result.

Zoe: Audiences feel that connection, definitely. Young or old, it’s the same thing for me. [As for teaching] if you’re dedicated as a musician, when it’s all about the commitment and an interest in learning, then it makes it a joy! It’s not about an exchange of money, it’s just about giving that person the information they need to do what they want to go on and do.

Idris: The nice thing about the current wave of jazz is that it’s massively supported by young people. There’s 20-year old’s going to gigs now; that wasn’t happening when me and Zoe were starting out. It just wasn't a thing! Nowadays, there’s this whole culture… kids are really excited by jazz, which was a rare thing previously. They even see it as a viable career option! I’ve had kids come through Youthsayers who hadn’t played for more than a year before they joined that I see onstage now at Glastonbury. It’s mad! Young people are very focused and just want to absorb everything. The role of teaching is to inspire them as much as possible in whatever way you can. I had kids from Youthsayers on the gig at [this year's] Love Supreme down the front who were just loving it. To see Zoe leading a band on a big stage, it’s a really exciting thing for them.

Zoe: The best thing I can ask for is that people are inspired, young women in particular. The makeup of my band is very inclusive, just because me, as a human, I like to include everyone. It’s really important that people see themselves reflected onstage.

How crucial is it for you to maintain those working relationships?

Zoe: I have a connection with everybody who's involved; it's not just the musician. Musically speaking: Gene, I've worked with for over 20 years in my band, so he has that connection with my music; Alec, as well, I've worked with for a very long time so, as a trio, we have that connection; Rowland is great – he did my very first tour in 2001, so he’s known my music for a long time. He likes how I write and the vibe on stage and is great to work and tour with. He’s got an incredible sound, a great energy, and he just fits really beautifully with my music.

It's not straightforward, my stuff. The more people I have around me who understand where I'm coming from as a person, as well as musically – that’s what I need. I think that comes across in how the music’s played on the album. It’s a group of friends, really, people I have a long association with. Especially as a woman in the jazz industry, connecting on that level, you don't have to say anything because you know your experiences. When you’re around those people who’ve had similar [ones], you don’t need to explain anything, you just know there’s a connection there in a way that there isn’t with others. I like to have people around who understand me – every part of my human-ness! Each tune focuses on a different aspect of my character, of my personality. None of us is one-dimensional, and I think each track says something different about who I am and who we are as people. That's why people respond to my music at gigs, they feel that emotion. Even if it's just for a split-second.

Colour of Sound is out now via Zoe's own label, Manushi Records. You can hear more of her recent work on Courtney Pine's album, Spirituality (2022), here.