Interview, Nicole Glover on learning to be a leader and 'Strange Lands'

Photo credit: Cypress Chvatal-Jones

A seasoned player both in the recording studio and on the bandstand, Oregon-hailing, New York-based saxophonist Nicole Glover has worked her way from high school big bands to leading her own jazz trio on Savant Records. Moving back and forth between the East and West Coasts before eventually settling in the American jazz capital of New York City, Nicole now enjoys regular spots at the city’s most popular venues like the Fat Cat and Smoke Jazz Club.

Calling us all the way from New York, Nicole kindly joined us for a chat about her sophomore album Strange Lands - one of our Recordings of the Week - as well as how she came to lead her own bands, and her love of the stripped-back sound of the chordless sax trio.

Let’s start with some backstory - it seems like you spent a lot of your early career playing in big bands, or contributing to other artists’ records. But there was a moment that sparked a change in you to start leading your own projects...could you talk a little about that?

I grew up in Portland, Oregon, and in high school I was part of these big bands for high school students who were interested in learning music, as well as a few community music programs outside of my school. I had some early touring experiences with these groups and performances on more national stages too, those were my earliest… I suppose ‘pre-professional’ experiences as a musician. What felt like the real start for me was when I started working professionally with George Colligan - playing in his band was my first steady, regular gig. In case people aren’t familiar with George, he’s a great multi-instrumentalist - mostly a pianist and bandleader - and has forty-something records under his own name. At the time I started working with him he was also playing in Jack DeJohnette’s band; the list of people he’s played with is really extraordinary.

That was my first real experience being a professional musician outside of school, actually learning on the bandstand in the real world. After a couple of years doing that I was planning to move back to New York (I’d studied at William Paterson in New Jersey for 2 years before that), and the summer before I went back I was on my first international tour, at a jazz festival in France on the coast of Brittany with another mentor of mine called Alan Jones. We saw Wayne Shorter’s quartet there and got to meet Wayne after the show; I remember him talking to me about how important it is to be an individual and leader in the world, how you have to really create something that expresses what you want - how to write your own story, essentially. That was really inspiring, as up until that point I hadn’t really had any interest in bandleading, to be honest; I was really learning a lot from being a sideman, and I enjoyed it, but I think beyond that there was a fear associated with being a leader... it can be quite a frightening thing.

I suppose you are a bit more vulnerable as a leader, aren’t you?

Very much so; you have to be comfortable making decisions, and know who you are and what you want. After that meeting with Wayne I started exploring that idea again and again, and even started leading my own band in Portland for a little while before I moved back to New York. It took a little while for things to get going, but once I’d been playing for a couple of years in New York I started to get offers from clubs to bring my own bands in, and I was again confronted with this idea of being a leader - on a bigger stage this time, too - I was in New York, not Portland, Oregon. It was still quite frightening, but I think this time around I was more ready for it, more excited for it… that ‘call’ to it was stronger, and I was more ready to answer it.

I guess when Wayne Shorter gives you some advice, it’s probably good advice! From your time in both, how does the New York scene compare to that of Portland’s?

Portland’s is smaller, the New York scene is vast - it’s as wide as it is deep. It’s got a nice balance in that you can quite easily find groups of people who have similar ways of approaching music to you, but also so many people who have totally different perspectives. It’s been interesting to see how one’s own musical vision fits into all that, how I can be myself in a place where there are so many individuals.

Photo credit: Anna Yatskevitch

And was that where you met Nic Cacioppo and Daniel Duke, your bandmates on Strange Lands?

I actually met Nic and Daniel when I went to William Paterson; that was 12 years ago now. When I moved back to New York I reconnected with both of them, among other people, but these two in particular I felt - even in my youth - a great sense of rapport, and I felt that all three of us had grown in our own ways so it’d be interesting to put the three of us together again.

All throughout both 2018 and 2019, and up until the very last day in 2020 we were playing in a variety of clubs; we were in rotation at Small’s and Fat Cat, but our biggest stage was our weekly gig at Smoke Jazz Club every Sunday night. The great thing about Smoke is that they’d book a band to play Thursday through to Sunday, and we played the late set on Sunday so the main band would be done with their run by then, usually sat at the bar decompressing; so we’d be playing for these people too, as well as the audience. The very first week we played at Smoke, the band preceding us was the Bill Charlap Trio, and they all stayed to watch us. We were getting ready to start the set and I look up and see Bill Charlap, Kenny Washington and Peter Washington all sat at the bar! I thought it’d be a good chance to workshop some stuff, but I quickly realised it was time for me to really ‘show up’.

There was another week where Al Foster’s band was playing, and again the band stayed to watch us; I finished my solo on the first tune and I feel a tap on my shoulder, and Nicholas Payton’s there with his trumpet out like “do you mind if I get in on this?”, and he ended up joining us for the entire set. That was one of the most impactful experiences I’ve had in New York, Nick not only challenging us but also trusting us to rise to it. It put me in a different level of focus, I think, having him on-stage with me I really had to bring it.

Speaking of your trio, on Strange Lands you opted for the slightly unconventional ‘chordless’ trio. What do you enjoy about writing and playing with that setup? Were there any touchstone albums or particular artists you were drawing from?

I really like the instrumentation of the trio, and there were albums like Sonny Rollins’ trio records - A Night at the Village Vanguard and Way Out West - that were very influential for me, as well as chordless quartets like Ornette Coleman’s band. But then it’s one thing for me to say “well, Sonny sounds great playing trio” and another thing for me to make the decision for myself. Ultimately though, the thing I really wanted to avoid was that I didn’t want it to sound like ‘quartet minus one’ - I wanted to see if we could get a full band sound with just the three of us, not have people saying “well it’s really cool but…”

“...where’s the pianist?”

Exactly, so a lot of the choice to go for the trio was predicated on the musicians themselves - the way they play. I personally enjoy the harmonic and rhythmic freedom we have as a trio; I feel like we can really open up the songs and phrasing with the way Daniel and Nic both play. Nic and I have spent a lot of time playing together, I really like the way he comps and fills out the sound, the way he can get inside what I’m doing is very satisfying - I wanted to focus on that in the context of the band. Daniel, too, has a great sense of the beat and harmonic choices; even some of the songs I originally wrote with chords we ended up recording as a trio because I liked the harmony being implied rather than explicitly given all the time.

It puts a bit more focus on the individual players, too, doesn’t it?

Definitely, and I also felt a lot more responsibility because I couldn’t just hide behind the chords - it was really up to me to dictate a lot of what was going on, and I enjoyed that challenge as well.

Photo credit: Cypress Chvatal-Jones

All that being said, there are a few tracks on Strange Lands that feature George Cables on piano, were those written or chosen with him specifically in mind?

George plays on two originals and two standards on Strange Lands, and although the two originals had already been written, I didn’t select those two standards until I knew he was on the project. For the originals (‘Hive Queen’ and ‘Notturno’), I felt like I wanted George’s piano in particular. As far as the standards he plays on, I selected them after we knew he was on board - especially decisions like making ‘A Flower is a Lovesome Thing’ a duo piece, that was all decided because he was on board.

As for the originals, they’ve got a bit of a science fiction theme about them, and I read that there’s a shared love of that kind of thing within the band. How did you go about incorporating that as well as the two standards? There aren’t many jazz standards I can think of that are sci-fi themed!

There’s definitely a shared love of science fiction within the band, and a lot of the originals - as well as the sound I was going for on the album - reflect that. But, part of the reason why I called it ‘Strange Lands’ isn’t just a science fiction thing, it’s that when we recorded and released it, it was a really bizarre time for everyone - I kind of felt like for the first time in my life that I was in a science fiction story myself. For me science fiction isn't just about the mysterious creatures or things lurking beyond the unknown, there’s always a theme of hope and focusing on the things that give people strength - these kinds of archetypal qualities of the protagonist having to find a way to keep moving forward throughout the terror and mystery. Because of that, the three standards are all love songs. That, for me, tied it back to this theme of ‘what keeps you going’. I also tried to make the three standards feel different from one another, both in terms of arrangement, and what we’re trying to say.

It seems like this ‘strangeness’ is passing. I always like to ask people what their plans are for the next year, and it’s only recently that artists have been able to say they’re excited to start touring again. Is that what your plans are for 2022?

Things are definitely starting to move again, and I have a few things coming up. The big one is that I'm touring with the band ARTEMIS for most of February, which is very exciting. In the meantime I’ve been teaching - both at Berklee (College of Music) and the New School (New York) - and playing around town as well as out-of-state. I don’t think we’re quite out of the woods yet, but I’ve been feeling a genuine sense of optimism for the first time, which is one of the themes of the record! While life can be pretty insane, it’s about trying to retain this optimism in the face of everything being so bleak. For me at least, living in New York, it does feel like we’re seeing the other side of that, so that’s a really good feeling.

Check out Nicole's latest album, Strange Lands, out now on Savant Records...